Our latest episode of Sinical China podcast touches upon China’s relationship with the Global South. We invited Wang Lei, director of the Center for BRICS Cooperation Studies at Beijing Normal University, to share his insight on this topic. Xu Zeyu, senior journalist with Xinhua News Agency and founder of Sinical China, hosts the podcast.
The following is the link and a full transcript of the podcast, recorded Aug. 22 and broadcast Sept. 4.
Xu Zeyu:
Welcome to Sinical China. I’m Xu Zeyu, senior journalist with Xinhua News Agency and the host for this podcast. China is about to host its most important diplomatic gathering this year, with a constellation of African leaders scheduled to show up in Beijing early this September. It will be the fourth time that the three-yearly “Forum on China-Africa Cooperation” is held in the form of a summit ever since its genesis in the year 2000. It also comes at a time when the idea of the “Global South” is making inroads into the global discourse and becoming increasingly relevant in great-power politics. Fifty years ago, it was during a meeting with an African leader that Mao Zedong proposed the “Three World Theory,” and announced that China would always belong to the “third world.” And recently, the Chinese leadership has reiterated on multiple occasions that China is “a natural member of the Global South.” How does China interpret the concept of “Global South,” and where does the world’s second-biggest economy position itself in this camp? How does China differ from the West in its way of engaging Africa and, by extension, other fellow developing countries? Does Beijing really have a plan to reshape the international order by championing the Global South? I have the pleasure to welcome Wang Lei, who is a professor and the director of the Center for BRICS Cooperation Studies at Beijing Normal University. Prof. Wang, thank you for joining us today.
Wang Lei:
Glad to be here.
Xu Zeyu:
First of all, there is a question of definition here. Even though the “Global South” now becomes a buzzword, this vaguely defined term is still subject to interpretation in different contexts. In the dimension of economic development, this concept seems to be interchangeable with terms like “the third world” or “developing countries.” Is there a richer connotation for the term “Global South” that comes with the latest resurgence of global adoption? And, as China has already eliminated absolute poverty and become an upper-middle income country, why does it still consider itself part of the “Global South”?
Wang Lei:
As we see, it's really interesting in the past years that the developing world, as well as the advanced economies, would like to promote the importance of the Global South. Actually, in essence, there's very little difference among these three terminologies—that means the “Global South,” “developing world,” as well as “the third world.”
But actually, if we analyze this phenomenon, the importance of the Global South in the past years promoted by the Western countries, it would like to go down to the logic of politics, especially for the geopolitical scenarios. As we see in the past years, those countries like China, India, and Brazil, those so-called emerging economies developed really fast. To some extent, they would like to promote fundamental changes to the existing international order, especially to be perceived by those dominating powers in this international order. These emerging economies are now posing very severe challenges to the dominance of those existing hegemonies, the Western countries—as we see, especially in the aftermath of WWII.
However, if we analyze the differences between these terminologies in detail, we will see there are some differences in very vivid scenarios. The Global South, to some extent, would like to focus on the geopolitical, especially for the geographical composition of those countries, a group of those countries which the majority are located in the south hemisphere of this globe, our earth. As we see, those countries, to some extent, would like to be categorized as the developing countries and as the LDCs, the least developed countries. However, if we go in detail to the very important characters of those countries, they are also very different from each other. The reason for the Western countries, especially for the Western think tank scholars in the past years, would like to promote the importance of the Global South, would like to go back to the very important and significant historical backgrounds, is the changes brought in or resulting from the fundamental changes because of the end of Cold War in the 1990s. As we see, those newly independent countries since the 1960s, 1970s are now carrying out their domestic reforms, as well as they are now very actively participating in the global market. To some extent, the predominance enjoyed by those Western countries in the past centuries is now going down. They are very worried about their dominance. However, in comparison, the Global South of the developing countries is very neutral. It's a neutral terminology. It's really academic to focus on the development stages of those countries. To some extent, it would touch the heart of the economy. That means they would like to take those economic factors as the standards to judge, to evaluate those developing countries.
Compared with the previous two terminologies, “the third world” is much more political. As you mentioned in the previous moments, as we see, the Third World Theory was proposed by Chairman Mao Zedong during the Cold War era. At that time, as we see, this world was divided into two hemispheres. One bloc was dominated by the Western countries led by the United States. The other side was, to some extent, also dominated by the former Soviet Union, that is so-called communist and socialist countries. However, this Three Worlds Theory, to some extent, perished from the global scenario because of the end of the Cold War, as we see 30 years have passed very quickly. However, this Three Worlds or Third World Theory, to some extent, is now coming back to the scenario of global politics and global economy. It's not coincidental. I'm afraid to some extent those Western think tankers and scholars would like to draw back our thinking, our thoughts, our ideas back to the Cold War era.
Let’s see why they do this. They would like to some extent to compare China to the former Soviet Union, and would like to get the image of China as a challenger even damager to this existing global order. That is the so-called “China Threat” theory. So, “Global South” “developing countries” “third world” have nothing different to do with each other. But it is a kind of coined or manmade theory because of some very black or even dark scenarios brought in by those Western think tankers, especially some Western media. It's not coincidental.
However, on the contrary, China, as we see, in the past years, would like to reiterate itself as a natural member of the Global South as well as a permanent member of the developing world. Why does China want to say that, even though China has developed really fast, even to perform as the second-largest economy in the world? I'm afraid it is a kind of very clear self-recognition, that is, China would like to stand with those friends, partners, even brothers because China and those developing countries, even LDCs, share a very similar history. They were colonized. They were divided. They would not forget the very bitter history in the past centuries because of the colonial history.
So even right now, China, to some extent, is entering the development stages of an upper-middle income country. But China would like to contribute to global development of this world, as well as to provide a kind of appropriate help, even aid and assistance to those developing countries. I think it's really important for China to do that, because if China would like to separate itself from the developing world, from the Global South, we see, it’s very dangerous. That means China would be separated from its partners, and its friends. China would be very lonely in this world. As we see, the emergence of the Global South, to some extent, is not scenario is not a scenario that is so pure. The substance is geopolitical.
Xu Zeyu:
Thank you for your elaboration. Coming back to the upcoming summit, this Forum on China-Africa Cooperation is reportedly the first “N+1” dialogue platform that helps China engage a particular region. It was after its founding in 2000 that Beijing initiated other similar mechanisms like the China-Arab States Cooperation Forum, China-CELAC Forum, China-Central Asia Summit, etc. In the grand scheme of things, what is so special about Africa in China’s diplomatic strategy? And, as the Global South has become more vocal lately, what new agenda should we expect from this summit that might differ from its previous sessions?
Wang Lei:
It's really interesting for us to see that in each year’s starting point, even, for example, on Jan. 1st of each year in the past 30 years, the foreign ministers of China would like to visit some African countries. Of course, in the past years, there have been some little changes: in addition to those African countries, Chinese foreign ministers would like to pay visits to some countries in Latin America, even the Caribbean region, as well as some Pacific countries. So we could see it is a kind of tradition for China to show its respect and it would like to upgrade its partnership and friendship with those members in the developing world. How about the representativeness of developing world in this world order, that is the African continent, that is those developing countries on the African continent?
So why? I think a kind of very clear message from China to show its diplomatic forces. That is, China would like to contribute its help to this world to eliminate the very absolute poverty in some regions around this world. That is, China would like to do something to change the scenarios of this existing global order. Because we see even in the past 70 years, this world has changed a lot, but to some extent, the division, the gap between the developed countries and developing countries is not narrowing, or has not narrowed down. It’s broadening. So, which country has the capability and the willingness to do that, to change that? That is China.
Of course, China per se could not change this world completely. There should be some partners and friends to reach the targets for China to do that, to promote the changes in this existing global order. The African continent, as we see in the past years, the bilateral cooperation between China and the African continent has been upgraded a lot with the establishment of some regional and even intra-regional regimes like the China-African Cooperation Forum, like the BRICS cooperation with some new members to be admitted by the BRICS cooperation, as well as some other bilateral relationships between China and some African countries.
So Africa, to some extent, in the past 30 years since the end of the Cold War, is becoming more and more important, and even is now becoming the eye-catching focus of the current global diplomacy. In addition to China, India, Brazil, even some developed countries like Japan, the United States, the European Union would like to promote bilateral cooperation between themselves and the African countries. So, to some extent, Africa would be the determining factor for the global scenarios in the upcoming decades. So, China as a very important country, a very important player on this global stage, would not say goodbye to Africa. On the contrary, it should promote the bilateral cooperation between China and Africa. Of course, in the past years, as we see, the Global South has become more and more important in the global economy and global political scenarios with the bilateral cooperation between China and Africa in the past years.
Compared with this year's upcoming summit, I'm afraid there are some upgrades in addition to the bilateral cooperation between the two partners, ranging from economic cooperation, trade cooperation, even geopolitical cooperation. I'm afraid for this year's summit, if we could have some forecasts or foreseeing, I'm afraid the investment would be really important.
In the past 10 years, with the Belt and Road Initiative, as we see, more and more Chinese enterprises are now going abroad to Africa to invest over there. That is the most important for Africa's development. And in addition to investment cooperation, China and Africa would like to do more to change and reform the global order. That means China would like to show its respect for the African Union’s status or stances, even influences in the global scenarios right now. China, as one of the largest developing countries in this world, would like to help Africa to be more and more important, even pivotal to change the international order.
As we see, those African countries in the past 70 years obtained their political independence. However, their influences with regard to economy, trade in the world is not appropriately respected. They suffered from very unfair, even unjust global trade and economic cooperation. However, that is a target, that is the focus for Africa's development in the upcoming decades. So China would like to help Africa to develop its manufacturing sector, would like to promote its investment in Africa, would like to show its sincere cooperation with regard to the economy, trade, investment, even some essential manufacturing sectors like the automobile sector, like the exploration of some crude oil fields and some other natural resources, mines over there.
Xu Zeyu:
You mentioned that developed countries also have a willingness to engage Africa and Global South countries through their own multilateral platforms. What do you think are the major differences between China and Western countries in their ways of dealing with the Global South countries, especially the African countries? And what lead to these differences?
Wang Lei:
Actually, since the end of WWII, we see those developed economies, with regards to international development, they did a lot, to be honest. And especially with the cooperation brought in by the OECD, the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development regime did a lot to help those former colonies to get their economic development. However, with this so-called international development project, we could see those African countries did not obtain their sincere economic independence. Their circulation of the national currencies was still produced by their former colonial countries, especially, for example, France. And even by around two years ago, France still produced the majority of the national currencies for around 12 Western and Central African countries. How could those African countries obtain their economic independence? That is a very tricky scenario or image we got from the so-called international development project by the OECD. That means they would like to continue their colonial dominance upon those African countries in another style, another method.
Compared with what has been done by those Western countries, we could see China's cooperation with those African countries is totally different. China would like to provide its help, which, to some extent, is so important for itself—China needs that. China would like to share with those African countries. China still needs a lot of FDI (foreign direct investment), but China would like to provide its very precious national and even foreign reserves for those African countries because they are also hungry in need.
And another very important difference between the ways of dealing with African countries by Western countries and China to provide their help to African countries is their focus. As we see in the past years, China did a lot to develop its own economy. A very important secret for success is infrastructure development. There's a very influential saying in the general public in China, “If you would like to get rich, (go) to build railways, (and go) to build roads.” I think China is doing that in Africa. China would like to send or to dispatch its very capable infrastructure teams to the African countries to build the railways, to build ports, to build roads in some African countries. That is what has been needed by the African countries.
But compared with what has been done by those Western countries in past centuries, they did very little. I have visited South Africa and some other African countries. They are still very much in demand of those very precious infrastructures. There are not very good expressways, railways, or highways, even though they were colonized by Western countries for centuries. That is very important. And I think those African countries are very clear about that. In the past years, especially with the previous three summits for the Forum on China-Africa Cooperation, we could see the African leaders would like to see that in public they would speak highly of China, China's help for them to build the infrastructure. There's another very important difference, that is, China would like to share its experiences of success in developing itself in the past decades. For example, the establishment of some special economic zones in Shenzhen, in Xiamen. We could see a lot of delegates from those African countries in the past years would like to pay visits to those cities. They would like to go there to have a very first-hand experience of visiting those special economic zones. And now a lot of, even dozens of special economic zones were established and are now functioning very well in some of the African countries like Ethiopia, South Africa, Kenya, and some other countries like Egypt are now in this queue to establish special economic zones. But the Western countries did not provide their success stories.
And the reason that led to these differences, I'm afraid, is sincerity. They have different philosophies. As we see, as a very old civilization, it's a tradition for the oriental people, for the Chinese people to share; we would like to share. It would be shameful for you to enjoy the fruits alone. You got an apple, and you would like to find some secret places to enjoy by yourself. It would be a huge shame. However, the oriental culture, or the oriental civilization encourages people to share with each other. You would feel pleased. I think the Chinese philosophy of diplomacy cherishes this very important historical tradition. The Western countries, to some extent, were influenced by their experiences of colonial history and even imperialist history. So the differences lead to their different performances with regards to their stances and policies towards their cooperation with the African countries.
Xu Zeyu:
As you said, China's relationship with Africa is really amiable, but has China fostered a strong economic interdependence with them, you know, with the Global South countries? Take Africa as an example, will it grow to be a viable overseas market for China, especially when there are more trade barriers and protectionist moves on the part of America and Europe against Chinese goods?
Wang Lei:
Yes, in the past years we could see not only the international media but even the Chinese government recognize that there's a relatively rich surplus of its productivity. We have to acknowledge that. In order to maintain the function of our production chain, I think it's very natural and it's also logical for China to go abroad, especially for the very spacious African market. Because as we see, the population of the African continent is equal to the sum of China's population, around 1.4 billion. It's a huge market. If other countries, the developed economies would like to go there to explore their market, why couldn't China? I think it’s not the philosophy of the marketing-oriented economy. So it's very natural and logical for China to go there. And especially as we see the style of China to go to the African continent, to explore their market, is based upon equality and cooperation. So China would not like to take all of those benefits and then flee from Africa and come back to China. However, China would like to continue to invest over there. That would bring a lot of opportunities for employment, for the next round of investment. So that is needed by the African continent.
In addition to market exploration, it’s also very important for China to promote natural resources cooperation. As we see, China now is one of the largest importers of crude oil and some other oils, some other natural resources like steel and iron. The African continent is rich in a lot of, even dozens of natural resources. So the cooperation between Africa and China would bring in very important opportunities for those African countries to explore their mines, to improve the export of natural resources. China is a very huge market for those African countries as well. So I think it's equal and reciprocal for both parties to participate in trade and economic cooperation. However, when we consider those trade barriers for Chinese goods in those American and European markets, that is the reality because of the protectionism and trade particularism in the past years resulting from those developed economies. The targets of China's exports, to some extent, were influenced a lot. That is a huge headache for the Chinese government and the exporters in China.
So in order to explore new markets, I think if we look at this world, how about the huge potential of those developing countries? There are huge populations. There’s a spacious market. There are opportunities for Chinese enterprises to go there to invest over there, which would like to promote their internationalization. So I think those developing countries, especially the African continent, are a very perfect and ideal market for Chinese enterprises, not only because of the potential of consumption, but also because of opportunities.
Xu Zeyu:
You talk about China's massive infrastructure-building drive in Africa. Through the Belt and Road Initiative, China has invested heavily in the Global South. How has this project made a difference to the Global South over the past decade? And do you think China’s massive investment in places like Africa is sustainable?
Wang Lei:
It's very interesting that around ten years ago, when the Belt and Road Initiative was proposed at the very first stage, the African continent was not over there. In the very first stages of the Belt and Road cooperation, those Eurasian countries and Asian countries were the most important potential cooperation partners. However, with three rounds of the Belt and Road Forum, we could see the African continent is becoming more and more important.
Now Africa is a natural partner of and inseparable from the Belt and Road cooperation. That means Africa, to some extent, would play a very important role in the Belt and Road Initiative, especially with the very rich results, very rich fruits under the framework of the Belt and Road Initiative. Africa's development and success in participating the Belt and Road Initiative would encourage other members, other countries in the Global South, for example, in the Latin American region, in the Pacific region, to encourage those countries to participate actively in the Belt and Road Initiative. We could take Brazil for example. Brazil is a very important country in South America. However, in the past 10 years, because of its domestic scenarios, Brazil did not perform very actively in the Belt and Road cooperation. However, in the past years, especially since President Lula came into power once again, now, the Brazilian government is very active in promoting its cooperation with China and the framework of the Belt and Road Initiative. So, the same logic applies to other members in the Global South, in South America, in the Pacific region, in the Middle East, and in the southern part of Africa.
So the success between China and Africa with regard to the Belt and Road Initiative would encourage other members in the Global South. Because they know that the Belt and Road Initiative is not a so-called secret grand strategy proposed by China to challenge the dominance of the United States in the world.
However, it is a very important and precious opportunity for other countries to develop themselves to promote bilateral cooperation with China, because China is still a place full of opportunities. With their cooperation with China under the framework of the Belt and Road Initiative, they would obtain this opportunity to develop themselves. That is a logic for those members of the Global South to participate in the Belt and Road Initiative. Of course, for his year's Summit of the Forum on China-Africa Cooperation, I'm sure the bilateral cooperation between Africa and China and the framework of the Belt and Road Initiative is still very important, even would be upgraded to promote their bilateral cooperation and that framework.
Xu Zeyu:
About two weeks prior to the opening of the China-Africa forum, India hosted a so-called “Voice of Global South Summit,” the third of its kind since last year. Some came to argue that the two Asian giants are vying for the leadership of the Global South. What is your view on this? Is China worried about this being a source of contention? Where does China position itself among the Global South countries?
Wang Lei:
The Western media would like to talk about this scenario a lot. They would like to create contentions between China, Africa, and India, a so-called competition for leadership within the Global South. I think that is a very bitter and very sad story if that is true. However, I think China would not like to see it that way. As we see, when China proposed the Belt and Road Initiative, it said that it would like to encourage other countries, not only those developing countries, but even developed economies like the United States and Japan to participate actively in promoting their cooperation with the Global South. It would like to encourage other countries to provide more and more help and assistance to those developing countries.
If other countries like the United States, Japan, the European Union, and of course other emerging markets like Russia, India, Brazil do more to promote their cooperation with the Global South, that is what has been perceived and welcomed by China. Of course, it's important for both China and India as well as some other developing countries to get a kind of collaboration. They would do something very similar in promoting their cooperation with Global South. But the competition is not encouraged. Of course, the logic of development and rule, the logic of the very bitter world of war is not welcomed, because as we see China's policy towards those developing countries is very clear— that is, to promote South-South cooperation, to encourage the independent development of those countries. I'm very confident to say that those developing countries, especially the African countries are very smart. They are not stupid. They are not silly. They know who is their true friend, which partner is providing very important and pragmatic help to them. How about the differences between beautiful words and action? I think they know that because that is a story that they witnessed in the past 30 years since the end of the Cold War.
And right now, we see India in the past years has been holding three rounds of the so-called “Voice of Global South Summit.” It's really nice, actually. Because as we see, India is another very important member of the Global South. China would not ignore the contribution and importance, even influence of India within the Global South. A very ideal scenario would be a perfect collaboration and cooperation between China and India to sit over there to design a very important and comprehensive scheme to provide their help for those developing countries.
Some other regimes like BRICS, the G20, as well as Shanghai Cooperation Organization, are now functioning very well. I think these regimes would be the ideal situations for both India and China, as well as some other emerging markets including Russia and Brazil, to design their upcoming decades of a roadmap to help the Global South countries to develop.
Xu Zeyu:
Other than the aforementioned forums that engage certain regions and blocs, as you have mentioned, China has also founded international institutions like BRICS, Shanghai Cooperation Organization, the New Development Bank, etc., whose members are mostly emerging economies. It has been taken as a sign by some people that China is leveraging its influence in the Global South as a counterweight to Western powers, or, to go a step further, to upend the current international order. Do you see this as a viable argument? And what do you think is China’s ultimate goal of raising the strength and voice of the Global South?
Wang Lei:
Of course, we have to see that in the past years because of China and some other developing countries’ development, as well as their policies towards the reform of the existing global order, the hegemony enjoyed by the Western countries in the past centuries is being shattered. It is not so stable right now. But that is right. The policies of those emerging countries would like to provide certain kinds of new scenarios of the future world order in which those developing countries would have a much bigger voice in the decision-making procedures of the very important policies in this world, ranging from security, peace, and stability, development, economic trade cooperation, etc.
So we have to have a very comprehensive analysis of the world order resulting from the contributions of those developing countries, including China. But we could not—or, it’s not appropriate for us to criticize what has been done by those developing countries. If we do that, that means we are still defending colonialism and imperialism which brought in a very bitter history of those developing countries. With regards to the future scenarios of those developing countries in reforming the global order, I'm afraid it's very perfect for us to remember, or bear in mind what has been written in the UN Charter— that is, to establish a much more just, fair and equal global order, composed of those developing countries and developed countries, rich countries, and poor countries. With regards to the newly established regimes like the BRICS, Shanghai Cooperation Organization, the NDB (New Development Bank), I think that is the way for China and some other emerging countries to reform the global order. They are now reforming this world via a very peaceful way, a very constructive way, rather than by means of war or by military power—that is not welcomed by this world.
Now is the 21st century. The world would like to welcome a much more civilized way, a kind of peaceful and stable way to reform this order, because those developing countries are also beneficiaries and members, at least, of this global order. War and confrontation would not bring in revenues to any of the parties. We have to secure a world which is stable, which is safe for the majority of countries, especially for developing countries. That is the most important for the LDCs and developing countries. If they would like to get development, they need a kind of secure environment atmosphere, not domestically, but in the international backgrounds.
So China would like to help this world to establish a kind of very stable and peaceful environment via their cooperation between and among those developing countries. That's why if we draw back, the Global South is becoming more and more important. That's why China reiterates that it would be a permanent member of the developing world. It would be a natural partner of the Global South. I think that is a decision made by China, which, in a very political way, is not a kind of proclamation. However, it is kind of a decision made by the Chinese government and the Chinese people. As we see, they see China as a peace-and-love country and civilization. That is for sure. That can be seen from history for thousands of years in the past centuries, in the past even thousands of years. China has never launched a war in this region, not to mention in the world. I think it's smart. It's not only for a kind of dream or ideal, actually, it’s a kind of living philosophy and living logic.
Xu Zeyu:
Thank you Prof. Wang Lei for shedding light on this issue. Prof. Wang is the director of the Center for BRICS Cooperation Studies at Beijing Normal University. I am Xu Zeyu, with Xinhua News Agency. That is all for this episode of Sinical China podcast.
For more on the recent China-Africa summit:
Xu Zeyu, founder of Sinical China, is a senior correspondent with Xinhua News Agency, China’s official newswire. Follow him on X (Twitter) @XuZeyu_Philip
Gao Shan and Chen Pu are also journalists with Xinhua and researchers at Sinical China.
Disclaimer: The published pieces in Sinical China reflect only the authors’ personal opinions, and shall NOT be taken as Xinhua News Agency’s stance or perception.
Podcast: How Beijing Views "Global South"